Before we dive into today's episode, I've got some exciting news. FutureLab, Australia's first longevity supplement range, is now available at chemist warehouse and leading health food stores. Now, this is a lot more than a regular supplement range. It really is a mission. The experts at FutureLab have developed formulas designed to support your well being today, tomorrow, and beyond. 

Welcome to FutureLab, where we explore the cutting edge of healthspan and well being. I'm Danny Urbinder, and with me is my co host, nutrigenomist, geneticist and nutritionist, Dr. Denise Furness. How are you? I'm well, thank you. That's fantastic. Look, we've got something that's, um, that's actually probably close to your heart.

Today, we're going to be talking, uh, with Dr. Elisa Song about how Healthspan, the foundations of that, are actually laid Not just at early life, but we're talking at conception and preconception. So I'm sure that's something that's certainly been of interest to you over your career as well. Absolutely.

That's actually where I started. So in the first 10 years of my scientific career in genetics and epigenetics was looking at preconception health and pregnancy and working with, um, DOHAT, so the Development Origins of Health and Disease, which is now called, uh, health. We sort of knocked off the disease.

But it is so important at these early stages. for increasing or decreasing risk of ADA onset disease. And I'm, I'm sure that we are going to hear a lot of that from Alisa, who is really a world renowned. integrative pediatrician. I feel very lucky to have known, um, her and presented with her with work that we've done in the past.

And I was in the US at a conference, the IFM conference, Functional Medicine Conference. And I told Elisa about our new podcast. I said, we're launching a podcast on healthspan and longevity.  And she said, well, you know, it all starts, you know, in utero in those early childhood years. And I said, do you want to come and chat about this on the podcast?

And we are very lucky to have you here today, Elisa. So welcome Dr. Elisa Song. How are you? Thank you. I'm, I'm so excited. I wish I could be there in person, but I will just have to wait for my next trip to Australia. Well, we certainly look forward to that too. Well, look, let's jump straight into it. But before we go into the topic that we just discussed,  You are an integrative pediatrician, so that's obviously an unusual area.

You don't often hear of that. So how did you get into that and what sparked your interest and led you down that path? You know, it, I am fortunate that, um, for many physicians who  kind of embark on a functional integrated path, they've done so because of a health crisis. Maybe for themselves or for a family member and conventional medicine didn't have all the answers.

And so they had to look outside the conventional medicine box. And, you know, for me, knock on wood, I didn't have that story. Um, and so I really started my pediatric career knowing that I wanted to be a doctor. to do more integrative, functional medicine work. I didn't know it was called that back then, right?

You know, because I, I, you know, this was back, I mean, I finished my residency back in 2000. So I've been doing this now for 20, over 24 years. Uh, and back then it was called alternative medicine, right? Or maybe holistic medicine. And, um, when I was a student, As an undergraduate, a university student at Stanford, um, I actually didn't even want to be a doctor.

I wanted to be a lawyer. I thought, you know, I, I know I want to work with kids. My passion is to help kids to be, you know, live their best life. And I was going to be a civil rights lawyer and I was going to work on Capitol Hill in Washington D. C. and fight for poverty rights and, you know, increasing the Medicaid poverty line and working on teenage pregnancy and all of that.

And I did. For actually a couple of summers as an undergrad, um, and then I realized, you know what, there's, there's something else that I'm really meant to do because I want to work with children, not just for them. And you know, life happens the way it should. And it was just at that moment that, um, I stumbled across a flyer for the American Holistic Medical Association.

And I'd never heard of holistic medicine. And I thought, well, let me check it out. You know, because my mom was a doc and I'd always thought, well, maybe, maybe that's something that I could pursue. And my mind was blown. This is in the late 80s. And it was when folks like Andrew Weil, Deepak Chopra, Joan Borisenko, they were just starting to become known.

And I remember coming out of there and calling my mom. No cell phones back then. It was, you know, we had to do the rotary dial and calling her saying, you know what?  I think I want to be a naturopathic doctor.  And she immediately was like, what is that?  And, and she never discouraged me, but, but nobody at that time knew what that was.

I mean, now we have so many great naturopathic schools and, um, weren't, uh, I have so many naturopathic physician friends, but, um, but that took me down the path to then pursuing medicine, going to conventional medical school, but always, Always dissatisfied and wanting to do something different. So  that's where I just, I, I sought my own education after residency and opened up my practice.

Fantastic. But it sounds like there was an interest in children right from the very beginning. So what, what sparked that? You know, when I was a kid, um, and thinking about what my future career was going to be, it was either going to be a pediatrician, Or a vet, a veterinarian,  because I always wanted to work with little, little people, right?

Little creatures. And, uh, and, and my first, my first love was actually going to be a vet. And I had this vision of living in a barn and having kind of like Noah's Ark, having every single kind of animal in the planet living with me in this barn, taking care of them.  Sounds like my daughter. Not such a huge leap to going to children.

I mean, I, you know, that I loved babysitting. I loved, you know, lifeguarding and being a counselor. And so, um, I don't know. I don't know what sparks people to, you know, at a young age to love kids or decide, ah, kids aren't for me. But, um, it was clear as a child that I always, always wanted to work with kids.

Now that's that, that really is. Look, you do exude that quality. So. You saying that is not surprising, but it is interesting that right from the very beginning, that was where your interest lied.  Well, let's jump into the topic at hand anyway. So we are all about healthspan. We want to explore what are the influences that ensure that we just, we live a, not just a long life, but also live as healthily as possible for as long as possible.

And when Denise mentioned that she got in touch with you recently, she mentioned that you were Well, it sounded like somewhat excited to talk about the fact that health span really starts not just at birth, but at preconception. So what are the influences at preconception that at least lay the foundations for health span? 

Well, and this is something that is such an important topic to talk about because now in the, you know, functional medicine world, we have all of these biohacks. I mean, all of these biohacks. Everyone wants to know what's the next biohack so that I can, you know, improve my longevity, improve my healthspan.

And, you know, we really, we want to think about the fact that, um, way back, even, you know, I mean, as far back as 2005, there is a New England Journal of Medicine report. Now, this is almost 20 years ago, um, that stated that despite our medical advances and for the past centuries, um, you know, our lifespans have been improving.

For the first time in history, we are at the point now where our children are expected to have shorter lifespans than us, their parents,  almost exclusively due to diet and lifestyle related diseases, right?  Now of deaths worldwide are really, really attributable to non communicable diseases. I mean, what are those?

Those are diet and lifestyle related diseases. And so, you know, we don't want our children to have that future. And when we think about what the foundations are for longevity and for healthspan, you're right. It starts, um, even long hmm. So it's preconception. I mean, we must think about how we're going to help our children.

future parents lay the foundations of health for their children and their grandchildren and their great grandchildren because all of those epigenetic influences passed down for generations. Yeah, we're going to get into those epigenetics. Sorry, go on. Yeah, I mean, so when we think about what those influences are, I mean, there's, there's, there are So many.

I mean, for me, it's always about the microbiome, right? I mean, we have to start with their microbiome and, you know, the magic happens in the microbiome. But, you know, then there's so many factors that influence microbiome health and, you know, in that sense, mothers, mothers and fathers, microbiome health going into conception and mothers, microbiome health in you, you know, in utero during pregnancy. 

during birth and her vaginal microbiome and her breast gland microbiome. So um, I mean we can unpack a lot of that. So I don't know where you want to start with that, but there's so many factors that, um, that are, that we know affect. Your baby's future health and also that we have the power as parents to change.

I mean, that is, that is where, um, the empowerment piece comes in because it doesn't, it's not enough to say, well, we know these factors, but, but these are almost all of these factors we have influence over. We can change, and that is the power of epigenetics. It means that our genetics are not set in stone, that, that we may have these genes that we're born with that put, put us at a higher risk for a variety of certain conditions, but nothing is set in stone.

We have so many, um, points of intervention that we can influence our epigenetic outcomes. Yeah, sure.  Do you want to, yeah, ask about the epigenetics? Yeah, I'd love to. And I guess, you know, when you think about the epigenetics, so as I said, I was involved in that sort of DOHAD sort of research consortium.

And it really started back with the Barker hypothesis. And learning that, Children that were born during certain things, like, you know, certain famines, I think it was the Dutch potato famine, then also in Ireland, they found that there were epigenetic changes. Well, back then we didn't know it was epigenetic changes, but they just realized that these children were more likely to be obese, more likely to have metabolic disorders, type 2 diabetes, um, cardiovascular disease.

So that really started, and I think, correct me if I'm wrong, Elisa, I think that was maybe 1995 or something, you know, mid 90s, we started realizing this link between what happens with the mother in utero, stresses, nutrient deficiencies can impact the health of the child. And then obviously since then, we've learned so much now about the molecular things, the epigenetics, um, But can you tell us a little bit more about these particular epigenetic changes?

I've just mentioned about, you know, nutrient deficiencies, um, but other things that can impact epigenetic changes as well as the microbiome. I'd be very happy to hear more about that and not just the gut microbiome, vaginal and the breast. Mm hmm. I mean, it's so fascinating when we think about, um, when we think about epigenetics and the developmental origin of health, right?

I mean, dough had health and disease, but, um,  we, when we're pregnant. The, the in utero environment that our babies experience set the stage for them to adapt to the outside world postpartum,  but depending on what that postpartum world looks like, they may be adapted to that or not. Right. So, for example, you know, with the, with the, um, the potato famine or, um, you know, there's another more recent, you know, the Project Ice Storm that looked at Canada as one of Canada's worst, um, you know, national disasters,  um, where, um, During these times, those babies that were inside in utero and were adapted to a state of famine, to a state of nutrient depletion, then became adapted to live in that kind of world, to be able to thrive in a world with scarcity.

And then you can imagine them being born nowadays into this world of, um, overabundance, excess food to that. Yeah. You know, they've, they've developed in an environment and like you said, exactly adaptations to help them survive. These things are to actually help survival, so it's not necessarily a bad thing.

It is meant to be a helpful thing, but the reality is now we live in an environment that is, you know, quite disconnected, and there is an abundance of food, and often that food is high calorie food. Low nutrient dense as well.  And you know, um, one of the things that I, that really, um, uh, I think about with these epigenetic changes, I love that you said it's not, it's not good or bad, it's how we, we're adapting.

This is, it's, it's a process that is meant to help us thrive if the conditions remain appropriate, right? Um, but as we think about, I always think about the effect of, of prenatal, um, maternal stress, psychological stress, and now we're finding even the impact of paternal stress, um, on, on your baby's epigenetics.

And this is not to, you know, blame any mother. I mean, so, the other thing I always kind of tread lightly on is because when we think about, you know, the epigenetic mechanisms that occur during pregnancy, um, it's so easy then as a mom to go back and think, oh my gosh, It's my fault that my child now has eczema or anxiety or, uh, an autoimmune condition or, um, you know,  PCOS or, you know, what, whatever else is going on and we have to understand, you know, we, we start from a point of, of  what we know and we only know what we know at the time.

And so now, all of these epigenetic, um, changes that, that occurred in utero do occur. They can still shift, right? We can still change our epigenetic future. So that is something that's so important to understand. We need to understand first what some of these forces are, but then also know, look, your kids have the power too, if we educate them to make these epigenetic changes for the better.

Right? Um, even if you're in your thirties or your forties or your fifties, we still have that ability to change how our genes are working for us or against us. And I really, I talk to, talk to kids about that a lot because I have so many kids in my practice who let's say, you know, Everyone on mom's side has diabetes and everyone on dad's side has anxiety.

So of course I'm going to have diabetes and anxiety at some point, right? That is the attitude for some adolescents who say, well, why should I bother? You know, why should I bother watching what I eat or how I'm living? Because I'm going to get anxiety. I'm going to get diabetes. Like everyone in my family has it.

Sorry, can I just contextualize that then? So, I'm just thinking in my case, I grew up in a household where my father was a chain smoker. And my brother and I were exposed to constant smoke in the house. I mean, it must have been disastrous for our health. Now, there would have been a lot of epigenetic changes that occurred as a result of that exposure.

I imagine putting me at risk of certain diseases later on in life. Are you saying that I could change, I could, I could influence my epigenetics now to reduce my risk for those, for those diseases even in my 50s now? Well, that's, that's what we're seeing, right? That's what we can do when we measure things like telomere length and, you know, when we can look at your biological age versus your chronologic age. 

No, it is possible to turn the clock back. Right. And hopefully we can do that, you know, at younger and younger ages or understand, um, you know, the, the processes that keep the clock from turning faster.  And then for, and for children to, I mean, if we can empower them and educate them now about the, the diet lifestyle changes that they can, um, you know, embrace as their future lifestyle and their current and future lifestyle, then they won't have to think about, you know, reversing their, you know, their biological age and trying to sort of age backwards. 

Which some of us are doing at this point in time. So I really like that you mentioned about not wanting to make mums feel bad because as someone who understands this in depth, you know, when I had my first pregnancy, I developed Graves disease. Excuse me. And, um,  I really couldn't eat very much until about 27 weeks.

I had constant nausea. I was very sick. I wasn't diagnosed until I was quite late, but the point is it was a very rough pregnancy. Then when I did eat, I probably ate worse food than I'd ever eaten in about 10 years. I was starving. So I was, and I was in a very weird place. Danny, we've talked about it before.

We did a podcast on it, but I was so concerned about my future child because I understood the influence in utero and epigenetically, and I was so concerned for my son.  And, Long story short, he's absolutely fine. There were some in the early days, I was worried about some developmental things. He didn't talk until he was a bit later, very sensitive child.

Um, there were a few things, but he's now 12 and he's thriving. And I want to say thriving academically, sports, soccer. So these things, even though I had I would say one of the worst pregnancies, I almost lost him at 27 weeks, that's how I ended up getting diagnosed, finally, um, and I was in thyrotoxic shock and went on medication that you're not meant to have when you're pregnant, all that kind of stuff.

But the reality is, you know, through relatively good nutrition, we're not perfect, but you know, love, kindness, a good environment, these things can undo some of those potentially negative so called epigenetic changes. So there is so much we can do because sometimes. There may be people listening to that have had a trauma or something in their pregnancy that you can't control.

So there's no point getting stressed or worried about that because that doesn't actually set you up for healthy aging for you or your children either. It's just about doing what you can now and knowing that we can actually undo undo some of those things if we start getting on track with our diet and lifestyle. 

Yeah, well, and, you know, when we think about prenatal maternal stress and psychological stress, I mean, that too, we know, I mean, so many, uh, it's so intertwined, I mean, psychological stress can disrupt your gut microbiome, trigger zonulin release, which is a marker for leaky gut, within one hour. And then think about if you're living in a situation where it's perpetual, you know, perpetual stress, um, you know, whether it's job stress or partner stress or, um, poverty, food scarcity, whatever it is.

Um, but that, and we also know if, if there are ways that we can support your gut's microbiome, all of those polyphenols, right, those phytonutrients, the color in your diet that, um, I mean, as long as you're, as long as you keep it down, right, not too nauseous, um, that the color in your diet will, will support your microbiome and your microbiome's ability to use those polyphenols with their genes to support our genes, right?

It's this amazing synergy, the symbiosis that we have, and in turn, your beneficial microbes will produce the short chain fatty acids like butyrate. that also help with our and our baby's epigenetics and will help produce some of the nutrients. All of those amazing methylation cofactors like, you know, your B12, your B9, and your choline.

You know, many of those are produced by your gut microbes. So if we think about, okay, well, what's thing, what's one thing that can help?  our, our child, you know, protect our child, improve their epigenetic resilience when they're born. It's really supporting our gut microbiome to support ourselves with the nutrients that we need to properly, you know, methylate and, and do all of the things that, that we need to for proper epigenetic programming.

Um, even, you know, there was, um,  Uh, a recent study, right, because I always say it's, you know, we know it's not just about the mom because everything's put on the mom, right? The mom's microbiome, how mom's ate, you know, all the psychological, you know, exposures and toxins that mom was exposed to. However, there was a recent study that came out that father's microbiome before conception Um,  could impact and had a significant relationship with, um, affecting baby's growth during pregnancy.

So correlated with growth restriction and low birth weight with worse birth outcomes and even postnatally after the baby was born, um, associated with poor growth after birth and even, you know, premature, um, premature mortality after birth. So really supporting.  How, so, so we've got, we've got a father that has an, a suboptimal microbiome, um, maybe doesn't eat well.

How does that all translate to all of those effects that you just mentioned? And if I can just jump into the microbiome, but also the epigenetic things we were talking about as well, like when you were talking about, yes, like, cause we do have a lot more information about the epigenetic changes in men, like in sperm cells, more than women.

It's a bit harder to be getting out there. The, you know, the egg, the ovum. But we know that men that are obese or that are smoking, um, tend to be more likely to have a child with smoking. They may be more likely for childhood cancers. If they're obese, their child's more likely to be obese. So there's definitely those influence.

So the microbiome, but then also epigenetically different genes are being turned on. Like we said, this adaption and with the growth restriction, as Elisa just said, for people to understand if a baby is truly growth restricted, this can have impacts on life. organ development and actually physiological changes in that child that then could result in a number of things that are going to impact their health, you know, um, cut metabolic diseases, things like that.

Yeah. You know, and there was even one study looking at, um, grandfathers. microbiome. And we know, I mean, the state of your microbiome is absolutely going to impact how epigenetics occur. Um,  I mean, it's interesting, too. So I have to, and maybe Denise, this is, this is something that you can answer, because I've had a hard time wrapping my mind around it, because you have the sperm and the egg that come together, right?

And they, they have their own sort of epigenetics that they bring with them, maybe different methylation. And then, you know, once they come together in those early stages, there's almost like a wiping of the slate, right? There's demethylation that occurs, and then it has to happen all over again, right? And so, you know, even if, you know, so that tells me, in my mind, what that tells me is even if preconception, maybe, maybe, you know, you or your partner aren't entering into the to the pregnancy in, you know, the best health possible, there are still many opportunities during pregnancy to impact what's going on from, from that developmental and epigenetic standpoint.

So if the mother does have, yeah, if the mother does improve her health during pregnancy, that will have an epigenetic influence on the baby as it's developing. Is that what you're saying? Even preconception, like what Elisa was just saying about that total, we have this demethylation. There's a couple of genes.

Um, that will be methylated, but basically there is this total demethylation. And that's a really critical time point because the body needs to be able to produce enough methyl groups. It's come back to what, to what you said, Elisa, the B9, the folate, the B12, all the methyl donors. So that's why we talk a lot about.

You know, folate important during pregnancy, preconception, but the mother needs to have enough of these nutrients to then lay down all of those methyl groups for all of that cell division. So it's a really critical time. So the mom and the dad are important, but that early stage of pregnancy, When we do get all that re methylation is absolutely critical.

Well, and, and, you know, just to think about the, you know, this, this is all kind of maybe seeming esoteric, but let's take the example of supplementation, you know, with your folate, with your B12, with your choline, which is so important for fetal brain development. But, you know, there was, uh, there's a famous, uh, mouse study looking at there's, something called the agouti mouse that's really famous, right?

And you know, in an unhealthier state, these mice become obese, metabolically unwell, they have kind of a yellow coat, and then in a healthy state, they're slim, they have a brown coat, and they're healthier, right? They're metabolically healthier. And so there was this one study that took these pregnant Mice and, um, and,  uh, genetically identical and, um,  fed, I think, through IV, they exposed these pregnant mice to bisphenol A, right, which is an endocrine disruptor.

And we know that we are surrounded, I mean, ubiquitous endocrine disruptors, these forever chemicals that are really everywhere and unavoidable. So, um, When they did no intervention but the bisphenol A, those pregnant mice gave birth to the heavier, you know, metabolically unwell yellow mice.  When those pregnant mice were exposed to bisphenol A and also supplemented with B12 and choline in B9, they had healthy mice.

Wow. Right? Yeah. So, same genes, these were identical pops, but different outcomes. Because epigenetically, those babies were supported by mothers being supplemented by these nutrients. So, I mean, there's so much that we can do. And this is where, you know, thinking about, um, you know, these, these forever chemicals that are found, you know, in cord blood, in the placenta, in breast milk.

What can we do to support that? Well, one of the ways we can support that is supporting methylation by optimizing, you know, methyl donors that pregnant women, um, you know, get through supplementation through their food. And we always want to use food as medicine first. Uh, and then even as, as we are born and our kids, you know, get older, we want to make sure that their diets are replete with all the nutrients that they need to support their epigenetics.

I'm so glad you brought up that study. Uh, so the very first publication was 2003, um, in the cell. So it was, um, Randy Jertle and, um, this is Waterlinden Jertle. They're the two authors that came up with that, a good, a goody mouse model study. And it was actually a little bit scary for all of us. I was doing my PhD at the time in epigenetics, looking at folate B12 in pregnant mothers.

And we were first understanding that these, these interventions were having major epigenetic shifts that they could be passed on, not just to the, to the babies of that mice, but future generations as well. And then it was a few years later, they came out with that paper that you described with the BPA.

So BPA, as we now know, is removed from plastic. So we see BPA free. And we know now that BPA does increase risk of developmental disorders, particularly in, in boys being an endocrine disruptor, mimicking estrogen, but also cancers. But what BPA does is actually rips off methyl groups. It changes those epigenetic patterns.

So when you then supplement these mice with something like a methyl donor, it compensates for that chemical or toxin. So you're putting in a toxin. can cause damage, removing methyl groups that should be there, but then you're bringing in something so that they can compensate. In saying that too, though, for the listeners, it doesn't mean you need to go and overdose on B vitamins, because I've had some people come to me then and think, wow, and I've, I've discussed this research before.

And then people are sort of overdosing on folate and B12. It's, it's not necessary. You need to go and have high doses of these things, more so try to reduce your exposure to these chemicals and toxins. And then maybe speak to a practitioner if you want a supplement or don't, don't go and think that high doses or excessive supplementing is the way to go.

Well, I'm so glad you said that because, you know, really, you know, many of the dosages that we are, that are found in prenatal vitamins, um, many of them are based on animal studies. And so, you know, I think, you know, many, uh, most. I mean, the good prenatals now are going to use, you know, methylated bees and have really good amounts of choline.

I think there's the best evidence for choline supplementation during pregnancy. Um, but there are some, as I was doing the research on, on, you know, what supplements and what dosages for pregnant women, um, there were some interesting studies that looked at, um, that looked at folate supplementation in the first trimester.

could potentially at least in this one study was correlated with an increased risk for wheezing, you know, reactive airway disease, um, in, in the babies up to maybe one and a half years of life. And so, I mean, that's not to say don't take your folate supplementation if it's, if a prenatal has been prescribed for you, but again, everything in moderation and it's really hard to overdo things with food.

So make sure that you're eating your dark green leafy vegetables and you know, you're getting in all of your amazing food sources. First, I mean, that's going to be the priority, um, because there's such synergy in the nutrients of food that you're not going to get from just taking isolated, you know, vitamins or minerals, uh, from, from, you know, different food components. 

Look, um, that's interesting, but one of the things that, um, I did want to touch on, um, again, that you've mentioned a couple of times, and that is the influence of telomeres. So my understanding is that when we're born, we're born with a certain telomere length. They're the protective caps at the end of chromosomes, which perhaps you can explain in a bit more detail.

But I'm interested to know, well, what influence and, um, Uh, I suppose to what extent do telomeres determine our health span and our lifespan? And can we have an influence on that as well? Yeah. So, you know, I'm going to just say I'm not an expert in telomeres because that's something more on the other end of life that there's been focus on, on how can we increase telomere length.

And, you know, that is a biomarker  for, um, you know, health span. And it's something that can be measured to, um, as we're trying to support. and optimize longevity, but we're born with a certain telomere length, and we know that prenatal factors can affect telomere length. And in fact, um, it's interesting, um, when, when babies are born with a certain telomere length, again, that cap at the end of their, their, um, chromosomes,  they, the telomere length actually has been found to rapidly decrease in the first few years of life.

So, and then reach a kind of a stable pattern through adolescence. So, presumably, then, If we would like to have longer telomere lengths in our, as we age, then we want to start off with them as long as possible, right? I mean, that makes sense. And, you know, diet can definitely, prenatal diet can affect the telomere length that your babies are born with.

In fact, um, I was looking at one study that found that a Mediterranean type diet can improve telomere length in your offspring. Um, psychological stress. in the mother can reduce telomere length. And we have to think now, I mean, I'm just thinking about all those COVID babies. And, you know, we know the impact of, of adverse childhood events.

And we know that there's been some, um, uh, thought that maybe through the pandemic, there's been some IQ loss that, uh, that we're now trying to catch up on. Um, but, you know, really that the, the effect of, uh, prenatal stress and early life stress also impacts how your babies and children respond. Their, their, their cortisol stress response, you know, their HP, hypothalamic, pituitary, adrenal, thyroid access.

And I'm seeing so many kids at younger and younger ages with adrenal issues and thyroid issues that, you know, really we, we think more of as, uh, as an older phenomenon, things that children should not have to face. Um, and even there, right, even there, when we think about psychological stress,  and I mean, the pandemic is something hopefully we will never in our lifetime ever repeat again.

Uh, but what's fascinating is when they looked at, I mentioned, Project Ice Storm, you know, in Canada, where they also found that, that, you know, babies who were born to mothers who were pregnant during this ice storm where food was scarce and, you know, um, power was out. The cold, I mean, this is one of the harshest winters in Canadian history.

And those babies did have a higher risk for mental health concerns like schizophrenia when they were adolescents and, um, you know, diabetes and, and metabolic health concerns. One of the factors that seemed protective, they looked at the mothers. objective hardship, right? And many mothers objectively had very similar hardships.

And then they looked at their subjective hardships.  And what was fascinating is that the subjective experience had a more profound effect on the outcomes for your baby. So those mothers who subjectively felt like,  okay, this is tough. And yet, maybe there are some silver linings, or it's not as bad as it could be, or it could be worse, right?

Those kind of, those mindset shifts that we can have, they really do make a difference. And that is something that I talk to kids about all the time. It, it is how we perceive our life and process it. Perceive our stress. So perceived stress is just as important as objective stress, and we can do something about the perceived stress that we have.

It's a work in progress always. Um, but, but meditators, you know, we're found to have, you know, different, uh, different methylation patterns after meditation. Um, you know, practicing loving kindness meditation, gratitude, um, EFT, emotional freedom technique, and tapping. So if you, if you were a meditator and you noticed that it influenced, it had certain epigenetic changes that resulted from that, what genes is it affecting and what, and how does that translate physiologically?

You know, I, I'm gonna, I'm gonna look here because I actually did. I was so fascinating. I wanted to see exactly what, uh, what genes were differentially methylated and there, there are actually several that were found, uh, in this, in this one study, uh, of meditators. There's And also, um, they looked at telomere length, so one thing that, that looked at, I mean, this is not necessarily, necessarily gonna, um, make a lot of sense to listeners, but the, um, they had differential DNA methylation at specific sub telomeric regions containing the GPR31 and the GPR32.

Okay. Serpent B9 genes associated with telomere length. I mean, that's fascinating. That's so, meditation can help you at least  reduce your risk of a shorter telomere over time. So by meditating, you're actually influencing an important aspect of longevity and health span. But also your ability to handle stress.

So you may recall we had the guest Ryan Smith.  And so he does a lot of work in that space from True Diagnostic looking at epigenetic methylation changes. And that's what I was doing the study with his tests last year.  And he has the biggest data bank, uh, like a biobank database of epigenetic changes.

And what they've found is that meditation seems to be one of the most profound treatments, if I'm, um, quoting him correctly, because he was actually saying he needs to do more of it. But meditation had a huge impact and it was changing the methylation, the epigenetics of those glucocorticoid receptor, um, genes, a lot to do with the stress response, a lot to do with the stress response.

I mean, that's, that's astounding. So meditation alone, we're talking about. Your mindset is able to change your epigenetics to the point where physiologically the genes associated with stress hormones are turned off. And I imagine there are a whole bunch of antelomere length as well. So it has a profound influence on our whole body.

To influence healthspan and lifespan? Well, and it's, it's a telomere length. It's also, you know, Denise, as you were saying, it's really, um, it's our gluco glucose insulin response, our lipid metabolism. I mean, just so many, uh, our inflammatory pathways. I mean, so many things can be righted,  through, you know, really harnessing that power of meditation, engaging your vagus nerve.

Um, you know, really, um. understanding that it's not just kind of an optional, Oh, I'll do it when I have time, but it must be one of the, one of the, I think it's one of the most important prescriptions we can really teach our children as they head into adulthood. We ever wondered what a healthier, stronger future you might look like with Melrose future lab, Australia's first longevity supplement range.

You can now optimize your health span routine by supporting cellular energy, metabolic wellbeing and muscle maintenance, as well as much, much more. And you can find this range at Chemist Warehouse and leading health food stores. Alisa, I have just had a flashback. When you came to Australia, you were on stage and, um, we were speaking.

Danny had actually organized the event. This was many years ago. And as someone who does a lot of public speaking myself, I know that I get a little bit. You know, I'm not in that parasympathetic, which is that relaxed state. I do get a bit in that sympathetic drive. I mean, I love public speaking, but I get nervous, heart rate.

Now you were on stage and we were at a TV studio with a live audience being recorded and you did the heart math. Um, you connected the little device to your ear and it's called heart math. I don't know it, um, in detail. You can explain it, but you showed us your results and you were up there.  Being filmed at a TV studio with a live audience, I was watching you and you were in that, what we call parasympathetic state, that relaxed state, not high cortisol, not adrenaline while presenting.

I've been, I can't believe I haven't asked you this for the last eight years. What is your trick to get into, are you meditating while you're on stage? She took a high dose of L theanine before she went on stage. How do you get yourself, because you're obviously someone who is very good at regulating your stress.

response. So I'd love to ask for you, but then also before we finish too, a little bit about what you do with the children, the teenagers, because we've talked a lot about pregnancy, but before we talk about how to help manage the healthy aging epigenetics in children, teenagers, how did you get that heart math result in such a great parasympathetic state while presenting on stage in that environment? 

Yeah, you know, you have to practice it. And that's just the bottom line. You're parasympathetic, your vagus nerve. I mean, it's it's like a muscle that has to be exercised, but it has to be exercised every day throughout the day. Because we have every single day. I mean, for listeners, your autonomic nervous system, that's your automatic nervous system, we have very little control over a lot of it.

And so the sympathetic part is what People are all too familiar with that fight, fright, or fleas, fight,  fight, flight, or freeze response where, I mean, that gets triggered in an instant for most people. You know, the, the, the morning started off, the kids were fighting and you're yelling at them, you're late to school, and then you have an important work meeting or your kids, they have an exam, or maybe they got a really mean text from a friend or saw something really Awful on social media, right?

I mean, we're always kind of jumping into this fight or flight state. And that that is a normal physiologic response. I mean, stress is not quote bad,  prolonged chronic stress, that is what's not healthy for us. So you know, when we have that stress response, our parasympathetic nervous system  should kick in to say, Hey, okay, that that saber tooth tiger, that proverbial saber tooth tiger, it's not here anymore.

So now you can just relax sympathetic, and you get into that calm, rest, digest, restore state. But if we don't practice that, we're always in the sympathetic state. And so it's just taking that moment to know what's fascinating is the one thing we can control in this sort of Automatic nervous system is our breath,  right?

We can control our breath and our breath is the direct line to your vagus nerve.  Because you can't sit here and tell your heart, heart to beat faster or your stomach to digest slower. You know, we don't have control over that, but, but simply by slowing down our breath, holding  our breath on the inhale, using our diaphragm fully to expand our lungs, and then exhaling slowly with our diaphragm, exhaling completely.

That then tells your vagus nerve, let's kick in, let's get into that parasympathetic,  And let's now stay in that calm state where we have optimal heart rate variability. And that you can learn how to, I mean, every, we have to breathe anyway, right? I mean, in, in my book, I talk about, I mean, there's a whole chapter dedicated to your vagus nerve and breathe.

Because if we learn how to breathe in the right way, if our kids do, they can.  Get into that parasympathetic anytime they want to, no matter what's happened, no matter how mean their friend was, or no matter if they have a, have a, you know, presentation in front of their classroom. And that heart math, what that does is, when you have that electrode on your ear, it connects to an app on your phone, and it's a, it's a proxy.

It measures your heart rate. whether you're in a state of coherence, whether you have good heart rate variability. And the way I explain that to kids is, you know, you can find your pulse on your neck or on your wrist, wherever you want to. And then you just slow your breath down and take a slow breath in. 

And you should notice as you're breathing in, your heart rate increases. And as you exhale, 

your heart rate slows down. That is good heart rate variability. Your heart rate is varying with when you breathe in. And when you breathe out, and so as you practice that, you can do that, you can get into that state any time. So when I'm nervous, I always get nervous before speaking, right? Um, but then you just slow your breath down, and you just engage your vagus nerve, and you can then stay in that state.

While you're talking or while you're taking an exam, and that state is a state that many people call the flow state. I'm in the zone. It's what athletes will do before they, you know, start their, their, their tournament. Um,  So as you, as you get into that state, we become much more creative, much more open, much more calm.

And so I think that's something if we can really help our kids learn how to engage your vagus nerve epigenetically, that's going to methylate many different regions of their genes that, that influence their metabolic health, their hormone health, their, um, their nervous system, health, their mental health.

Okay. It's going to help support their microbiome, because improving your heart rate variability optimizes your microbiome independent of diet. And so, you know, in our fast food ultra processed world, where our kids are, you know, going out and buying all sorts of junk whenever they get a chance,  helping them learn how to use their vagus nerve every day, mindfully, can help to counteract all of those.

And that even, you know, even toxic stress and environmental stress is going to be protective. I mean, what you're talking about is obviously a feature of meditative practices that have been done for thousands of years. But I think what you're saying is it's something that we should be mindful of just during our day, day to day, we should be aware of how we're breathing as a way of Ensuring that we at least when we're feeling stressed, we can go back to that parasympathetic state.

Is that, is that the practice that you're referring to? Yeah. Yeah. And I don't even call it meditation or mindfulness. Cause you know, a lot of kids, at least in the States now, many schools have a class, a socio emotional learning class where they'll do some yoga, they'll do some meditation in class. And it's, it's always, it's, Often the class that, um, when kids are, you know, when I ask them about school, they kind of do the little eye roll like, Oh, yeah, I get to, I get to go to sleep for, you know, a little bit, right?

Um, so unfortunately, mindfulness meditation has been kind of put into a different, like a woo woo realm, like, Oh, this is not, it's not real medicine. So, I mean, I let them know this is vagus nerve exercises. This is vagus nerve work that we need to do just as, just as much as, you know, we, you work your muscles or, you know, you, um, you work your, your focus muscles.

I mean, whatever it is, this is really, it's something that we want to put on the realm of, um, what we need to do every day.  Just as or probably more important than any supplement I can recommend. So the kind of food is medicine and, you know, vagus nerve work, mind, mind is medicine are the two priorities.  I talk to my patients about self care snacks.

Now I, Developed that from my good friend, Paul Taylor, who's going to be on the podcast very soon. He talks about movement snacks. I don't know if he came up with that or someone else, but movement snacks. So, you know, you're not sitting all the time, a little bit of exercise in between. And it was a big part of our healthy aging study last year.

But something I've recently just started introducing is self care snacks. And really, it's just about a couple of deep breaths in between meetings or work, or after you drop off the kids. Because there is so much power in that deep breathing. And I don't call it meditation. One, because I'll disclose, I don't think I'm a very good meditator.

I would like to develop that skill, but we can all take 10 seconds to just do a couple of deep breaths. And like you said, Elisa, people are in this constant sympathetic drive, the stress. And as they wake up, da, da, da, da, I've got this on, it's kids and I've got meeting or blah, blah, blah, or whatever it may be.

And if they don't have children, they're just stressed by the day.  just starting the day off in this state and often in that state, you know, until bedtime. And that really is a cause of chronic health conditions that causes accelerated aging, exactly what we don't want.  So these self care snacks, I'm calling them, um, is just about during the day, having a few moments, whenever it is, just to take a couple of deep breaths, just slowing down, being in the moment, giving your, giving your mind, um, a bit of a break.

Now I've not read your book yet. Uh, however, I do feel very privileged and special that I was the first Australian to get your book. Should we say what the book is? Yes. So when we're in the US, when we were in the US in June, we would, it's, it's coming to Australia, it looks like. It's just like this.

Healthy kids, happy kids, fantastic, yep. Yeah, healthy kids, happy kids, but, you know, I have children and, um, thankfully at this point they're young, twelve and seven, um, you know, they, they're, they're doing pretty good. I mean, we live in a beautiful part of Australia. I feel like we're a bit removed from some of the things being in the Noosa hinterland.

But I think this is really important for all of us. And even you saying you've got a chapter on the vagus nerve, even for, for the adults, you know, for the parents, for everyone, you know, these, these things are so important. Um, but yes, I'm glad that you reminded me about the book and you've got a chapter in that because I do need to read that book. 

Well, and you know, I, I will say, I mean, I, I don't know what being, you know, good at meditation is, but if we had to rate it on a scale, I'm probably terrible at it because I sit there and you know, you can only sit for so long before I start to feel like, Oh, I need to  start doing something else. So I mean, literally I start the day with, it's a fun day.

Five minute meditation  on a free app called insight timer, and I will have kids who have phones and parents download the app when they're sitting right in front of me  and bookmark that five minute meditation. And I let them know you do this, you know, start the day with this, or if you're, you know, in the parking lot on your way to school and you have those five minutes anywhere you can, but do it once a day.

And if you don't. Feel like you have time for five minutes. It's because you really don't want to. It's because you don't yet understand the importance and the power of it. But you know, starting every morning with that five minutes, it's like, it's like my way to reset for the day. Or, you know, if you want to reset later in the day, but But you do feel, you do feel the difference that it makes to your day, if you start the day with that meditation.

Is that what you're saying? Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. When I don't have that time, which unfortunately, you know, now with the, with the kids school schedule, um, they're, they're getting up early. early, and so I don't have that quiet time often before the the hustle and bustle starts. But, you know, I can definitely notice, notice the difference.

I noticed the difference in my patience with what's happening in the morning, you know, how we get out the door, is there going to be screaming and crying? Or is it going to be a smooth exit, you know, to the car?  Also, starting the day when I get to the office, am I just Focus and, you know, open up some tabs and start doing the work.

Or am I kind of frantic, oh my gosh, I have so much to do and I do, I wanna do this, I have to do that. And, you know, moving from place to place. So, um, there's a certain, what's the right way to phrase it?  Um, a stillness in the busyness that it imparts to the day. Which makes such a difference. And I feel like, you know, we're all busy.

Our kids are all busy. So if we can find how to be a little bit more still in each day, um, and present in what we're doing. There was one study, it was a, I believe it was a Harvard study, but, you know, they, they, I don't even know how they surveyed this or, or analyzed this, but they found that, um, I think 95 percent of the time, we are thinking about something else than what we're actually doing,  right?

Like, even as we're sitting here, I, my mind flitted to, Oh, I have to pick Kenzie up for soccer  at some point, right? And and, you know, the more the mind wandered, the lower the happiness scores.  The lower our happiness scores,  the worse our methylation is going to be. I mean, the worse our microbiome is going to be.

So, a wandering mind was found to really be an unhappy mind. And so, it's just, it's cultivating that ability to be present and mindful in the face of, you know, social media calling and, and texts and group threads constantly pinging. I mean, it's, it's something that we have to work extra hard at for our kids nowadays.

And, um, and that, that power of connection.  I mean, the of touch of community. I mean, that that we know through the pandemic, how much that loss of community impacted not just mental health, but physiologic health. And, um, and I mean, Denise, I know you know all the studies, but there is that one study of, um, of pups, right?

These these rats who, um, were either isolated from from their mothers or Or had a lot of licking, grooming behavior, basically the hugging and kissing and touching that we would do with our babies. And those, those pups who were touched and kissed and loved, they had differential methylation. I mean, they had improved health outcomes because of that.

So, um, you know, the, the power of, of love and touch and, you know, just, just being, you know, in community. Yeah, lower cortisol levels, didn't, didn't have the same anxiety, like, so not just the methylation but talking about the outcome, they were calmer, pups, mice, and into adulthood, whereas those that were removed from getting that, I guess, grooming, they call it grooming but it's similar to hugs and kisses, um, actually were more anxious.

You know, stressed, high cortisol levels, but yeah, stress hormone.  Can I ask you, Alisa, aside from doing your five minute meditation in the morning, what do you do  to take care of your health? Now I know sometimes supplements can change, but at the moment, do you have a supplement stack? What's your favorite, your biggest hacks for taking care of yourself to set yourself up for healthy aging?

I would say my number one priority is sleep.  I mean, more than anything. Any supplement, and you know, I'm not a regular supplement taker. I take supplements here and there. I will say my two favorites that I take on a more consistent basis are my SPMs, so Specialized Pro Dissolving Mediators, um, to help modulate, regulate immune response, um, and CoQ10.

I mean, those are the two things that are, are more regular in my, um, in my, uh, in my supplement stash. Um, but sleep.  There is nothing that  I mean, I'm not going to say nothing that's that's kind of dramatic, but there are very few things that can restore your health, like sleep can,  right? I mean, sleep, sleep and exercise, I mean, all these things, but sleep, I mean, sleep is when your brain, your brain actually shrinks by about 60 percent to be bathed, you know, by its own lymphatic system, the lymphatic system to clear away the waste.

It's all the toxins that you were exposed to during the day and bringing some nutrients for kids. I let them know your brain is releasing most of your growth hormone in your sleep. Like literally your kids are taller overnight. You know, it's not, you didn't just imagine it. Um, and so I just, you know, your, your blood sugar, insulin response.

I mean, so many things will fall into place. So that, that's probably my big, it's not a hack necessarily, but, um, it's over the, over time, especially as I've tracked things like heart rate variability with my Oura ring. Um, I, I can absolutely see resilience scores correlated mostly with sleep. Well, I'm glad that you said that because I did have that question on the list and I was worried that we were running out of time.

And I recognize how important sleep is, so I'm so glad that you mentioned that. Um, having been  I've been an insomniac for the last two years myself, improving though. I can testify to just how important sleep is and how it affects every aspect of your health. Um, I mean, it is profound compared to anything else that we discussed today.

Um, and I've certainly experienced adversity like anyone else in this world, not sleeping. And it was, uh, it's something that I'm proud of. Thankfully, getting over now, not sleeping has been the most impactful thing that I've ex experienced in my life in terms of my health, in terms of my mood, my ability to be productive, my ability to have relationships with people was affected by lack of sleep.

Yeah, so it's, yeah, it's it. I think it's one of the most profound, just from personal experience. You've got your aura, I've got my whoop band, and I love traveling internationally. I get to catch up with amazing people like you. But it really knocks me about, and because I am so focused on healthy aging, I am considering next year being a little bit more selective with the amount of travel I do because it does have a big impact on, we were talking about this earlier, you know, my, not just my sleep patterns, but my desire to exercise, you know, my food choices.

And so I love these events, but yes, sleep for me with my HRV and I can feel it for those that aren't tracking on these things, you know, their stress and their sleep and their HRV. You can just wake up and say, do I feel energized? Do I feel fresh? Am I ready to start the day? If you're not, then you probably need to work on these things.

Alcohol's the other thing for me, Elisa, um, someone who has loved a drink. throughout most of my adult life. Um, and I've really cut back on the alcohol last year doing the healthy aging study, tracking so closely, doing the biological age, epigenetic testing, alcohol is, you know, it's, it's, it's definitely something that is not good for my health and most people that I work with as well. 

Yeah, well, there is. I mean, I have not been able to find this reference, and I don't think I made it up. But I remember reading, you know, eons ago,  this one study that looked at, um,  driving things like fine motor control. And I think this was really in driving and looked at people who were sleep deprived versus people who had had maybe one, one glass of wine.

And the reflexes of the folks who were sleep deprived were worse. than the folks who had had an alcoholic beverage. So, I mean, just in terms of, you know, think about how many people are sleep deprived, just, you know, driving on the highways every day. And, you know, the tasks that we're called to do and, you know, how much clumsier you are if you really pay attention, if you're not sleeping well.

And, you know, sleep, the just the sleep microbiome relationship is fascinating, too, because it just takes Two days. So 48 hours of sleep deprivation to disrupt your microbiome to a more inflammatory pattern.  On the other hand, it takes seven days to restore that. And so, you know, we we want to be, um, on a consistent pattern of getting optimal sleep so that, you know, the times where we are, of necessity or not, you know, sleep deprived, um, then, uh, then our, our microbems have a better chance to bounce back.

And then improving your microbiome does also support healthy sleep because your, your microbiome makes something like  four hundred times more melatonin than your brain does. So, oftentimes, you know, when we're having some sleep issues, like for kids who come in and they're having sleep issues, or parents are asking about sleep, um, sleep disturbances are so common in kids and adults.

Um, and so, you know, we always say, start looking at their gut first and seeing, can we optimize those microbes that are supporting the neurotransmitters that optimize sleep and mood, like serotonin and melatonin and, you know, GABA and acetylcholine. Yeah. And I am, I'm guessing there's a lot more about this in your book as well, looking at the gut microbiome as well.

And I think what you were leading to just then too, was really that word resilience. because there will be times that we may not sleep well on the odd occasion traveling or you might go out socially or for whatever reason, but we want to have enough resilience so that we are eating well, sleeping well most of the time, looking after our gut, gut microbiome, et cetera, that we can tolerate the odd time where we are not, you know, sleeping so much.

Um, but I really appreciate everything that you have said and I look forward to seeing you in person. Hopefully you are going to be back in Australia. very soon.  Danny, have you got any final questions? Yeah, I know we need to bring you over. Yeah, we certainly don't want to hold you up on picking up Kenzie from soccer practice.

It is Kenzie, is that right?  But before we do let you go, it's traditional of us, because we are a program about healthspan. And the question from The last question that we like to pose is if you did have an extra 10 years of life than what we have on average, let's say, how would you use that extra 10 years?

What would make it meaningful to you? Ten years of healthy life. Yes, feeling good, functioning with your body and mind. Yeah,  I mean, I love to travel and experience different cultures and different foods. So I would spend those 10 years traveling every, every single nook and cranny of the world. I mean, that would be my dream come true.

If I could really explore all that, you know, the, our ecosystems have to offer, the cultural diversity. I mean, that would be, um, amazing. I'm trying to do that now, you know, with my kids and, and really share that. But, um,  yeah. And not when you're working. See, for me, I pop over. I'm working and then I come straight back enjoying your time while you're traveling, you know, a bit more relaxed.

Sure. And if people want to find more about you, the resources that you have to offer, certainly sort of learn more about your book, how can they, how can they find that?  Yeah, well, actually in Australia, um, the, the book is going to be available, um, on Amazon. So really easily, uh, at the end of October, October 30th.

Fantastic. And then you can find out more about me, you know, how I, the different information, the different classes that I give or just my online blogs on my website, which is healthykidshappykids. com. And then on Instagram is where I'm most active and that's healthykids underscore happy kids. Fantastic.

Well, Dr. Elisa Song, thank you so much for your time.  We could have literally gone on forever because there's just so much to cover, but thank you so much for that fantastic information. Thank you, Elisa. We'll talk to you soon. Yeah, thanks for having me.